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Has Anyone Tried Eucommia Bark???


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#1 jpjd59

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 01:15 PM

Just wondering if anyone has tried Eucommia Bark? (I heard it is supposed to act as a natural beta blocker). I would love to know if you had any improvement or side effects.

#2 ramakentesh

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 09:36 PM

Ive taken it on and off for years. I like it better than conventional beta blockers because it lasts longer and does leave me as prone to worsened dizziness. No side effects other than taste. In a mix with rehmannia it actually can help all my symptoms.

#3 Zap

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 04:02 PM

Hi,

I'm just starting out here as a member, but I thought I should reply to this topic. I'm a trained herbalist, and I actually have some Eucommia Bark on its way to me, and am very curious to try it.

Eucommia is a Nonselective Beta blocker, so it is similar in action to some of the others I have seen used for both migraine and dysautonomia. Given my past, suspicion of PTSD, migraine, dysautonomia, and hyperadrenergic inclination I am curious if it will help ameliorate or worsen any of my symptoms. I still can't determine if the hyperadrenergic state is the primary cause of my issues or the body's answer (secondary) to balance out something else that may be, in fact, hypoadrenergic.

From brief research on Rehmannia, it appears to modulate the dopamiergic system and stop production of pro-inflammatory factors. This seems like a great candidate to be used in conjunction with Eucommia, or with it as part of a wider herbal formula.

#4 issie

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 01:08 AM

Hi,

I'm just starting out here as a member, but I thought I should reply to this topic. I'm a trained herbalist, and I actually have some Eucommia Bark on its way to me, and am very curious to try it.

Eucommia is a Nonselective Beta blocker, so it is similar in action to some of the others I have seen used for both migraine and dysautonomia.


I have been trying to find this herb for months. None of my local stores have it. Where did you order it from? Also, would you happen to know - since this is like a beta blocker ---would it degranulate mast cells like betas do? Since I have MCAS and can't take betas - wondering, since it's an herbal if it would have the same reaction. Although, it sure sounds like it would help. Rehumania is much easier to find and is in a whole lot of chinese mixtures. Rama has been talking about these two herbs for awhile and even though he says he has taken them for years - they must not be ALL he needed cause I know he's added some meds to his routine in the last half year. But, it sure sounds like it might help, still looking for my purple bandaid. I hope I can find the Eucommia bark.............

Issie

#5 jpjd59

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 10:53 AM


Hi,

I'm just starting out here as a member, but I thought I should reply to this topic. I'm a trained herbalist, and I actually have some Eucommia Bark on its way to me, and am very curious to try it.

Eucommia is a Nonselective Beta blocker, so it is similar in action to some of the others I have seen used for both migraine and dysautonomia.


I have been trying to find this herb for months. None of my local stores have it. Where did you order it from? Also, would you happen to know - since this is like a beta blocker ---would it degranulate mast cells like betas do? Since I have MCAS and can't take betas - wondering, since it's an herbal if it would have the same reaction. Although, it sure sounds like it would help. Rehumania is much easier to find and is in a whole lot of chinese mixtures. Rama has been talking about these two herbs for awhile and even though he says he has taken them for years - they must not be ALL he needed cause I know he's added some meds to his routine in the last half year. But, it sure sounds like it might help, still looking for my purple bandaid. I hope I can find the Eucommia bark.............

Issie


Issie:

Me too. I have called my local health food store and they don't carry it. I do see that it can be ordered on-line but I don't much about this herb so I don't know which website is best to order through. Also, I had the same question as you since we suspect that my daugther is dealing with a mast cell issue and I am not sure if this would help or make her worse (like beta blockers do). Let me know if you find out anything about this. Thanks!


Pam

#6 Zap

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 03:13 PM

Well, I didn't expect to start discussing herbs and nutrition so soon after my arrival! In the course of searching for answers for my own and others' health issues for a while now, I got into herbs, did some schooling, and started a small business a few years ago.

Long story short, I've got a few wholesale distributors that I've been working with and I discovered that one of them actually had the bark, so I placed an order. I couldn't find it through any of the normal channels locally or online in a small amount to try it first, so I have a whole pound coming! I'll post an update once it has arrived, and I check it for quality and purity. I may be able to ship out a few samples or something to that effect.

I'm planning to make a tincture (alcohol extract) of it, which helps preserve its strenth as well as allow for easy dosing. The amount of alcohol in a dose is very minimal and shouldn't bother anyone that is sensitive to drinking. As a matter of fact, breakdown of certain foods is likely to produce more alcohol than the amount in a dose of a tincure. :)

In all honesty, I have not found a large amount of information on Eucommia as compared to some of the other herbs I use. Whether or not it would be a mast cell degranulator is a very interesting question, but may not be fully able to be confirmed without trying some. I would think that for anyone that has a hyperadrenergic state and MCAS that the degranulation effect of the Beta blockade would be less than that caused by the adrenal rushes, as long as there was no allergic reaction. Beta blockade may also be effective in combination with Histamine (H1/H2) blockade.

--- Time passes, lots of research papers and studies read.... ---

Interestingly enough, and this is part of why I love herbs SO much, Eucommia contains a iridoid glycoside called Aucubin. A research paper I referenced states that Aucubin is a specific inhibitor of NF-kappaB activation in mast cells, which might explain its beneficial effect in the treatment of chronic allergic inflammatory diseases. So, cutting through the jargon, this appears to say that Aucubin in Eucommia actually prevents activation of mast cells. This suggests that it may not have the same side effects of Beta blockers for those with dys and MCAS, but rather it may be beneficial for both. :)

This is part of what makes herbs so superior - the fact that they are naturally built with numerous active ingredients, co-factors, and supportive nutrients. This is a great part of why they are so much more biologically friendly and do not have the numerous side effects of using a single chemical substance.

While we're on the topic of MCAS, Quercetin actually is bioflavonoid which blocks mast cell and basophile histamine degranulation. It is sold as a supplement isolated from plants, though my first preference is to use foods that contain the substance as they have many other valuable co-factors that are missing in an isolate. Bee pollen, onions (especially red ones and in the outermost rings), black/green tea, citrus, and tomatoes are a few sources rich in quercetin. It also has MAO-A, MAO-B inhibiting properties as well. Interestingly enough, recent studies showed that organically grown vegetables had higher concentrations, so another reason to buy organic.

Hope this sheds some light on the subject, and thanks for prompting me to do a bunch more reserach on Eucommia. This will be very helpful for an eventual formulation, as well when I am assist others in the use of herbs! I learned a lot!

#7 jpjd59

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 04:52 PM

Zap:

Thanks for all of your research. I hope someone with MCAS that has tried eucommia bark joins in on this topic. I would love to know if it made their MCAS symptoms worse or better (we were just at the ER last night for a reaction to a med so I don't think we are ready to try anything new yet).

#8 Zap

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 05:30 PM

Sure thing - hopefully there is someone out there who has given it a try. I'll report in with my results when it comes, too. I've never been tested for MCAS, so I'll have to look into that also. I plan to bring it up at my EMG appointment, as my autonomic neurologist is going to be there.

#9 firewatcher

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 05:31 PM

Eucommia bark is better known as Du Zhong and can be purchased at just about any Chinese apothecary (look in your local China-town.) It comes raw and salt-fried (it depends on the action you want..don't ask, I don't know!) I DO know that an alcohol tincture is NOT the same as a traditional water decoction and may completely change the chemistry and in vivo action. It would not be used alone in Chinese Medicine, it would be used with other herbs to modify or direct its action. Be very careful, this herbal stuff is not harmless, even if it is natural.

#10 firewatcher

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 05:38 PM

http://duiyaoonline....rbs/duzhong.htm
More info on DuZhong.
Be aware, it is a potent anti-hypertensive and can cause hypotension.

"The ethanol extract of the herb increases heart rate and contraction amplitude. The herb exhibits a marked cardiotonic action."

Edited by firewatcher, 06 July 2012 - 05:40 PM.


#11 jpjd59

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 06:36 PM

http://duiyaoonline....rbs/duzhong.htm
More info on DuZhong.
Be aware, it is a potent anti-hypertensive and can cause hypotension.

"The ethanol extract of the herb increases heart rate and contraction amplitude. The herb exhibits a marked cardiotonic action."


Firewatcher:

Thanks

http://duiyaoonline....rbs/duzhong.htm
More info on DuZhong.
Be aware, it is a potent anti-hypertensive and can cause hypotension.

"The ethanol extract of the herb increases heart rate and contraction amplitude. The herb exhibits a marked cardiotonic action."


Firewatcher:

Thanks! After researching what I can about it I think we are going to hold off. My daughter's primary doctors don't know enough about it to risk trying it.

#12 firewatcher

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 06:45 PM

jpjd59,
IF you want to try DuZhong, go see a trained herbalist, it may be entirely appropriate. I am leery of "inappropriate" use of Chinese herbals, the vast majority of these herbs are used in formulas (several of which have helped me.) These herbs are almost never used alone and almost never at the levels you would find in "supplements." Just because a little of something is good, it does not mean that more of it is better!

#13 issie

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 08:44 PM

Beta blockade may also be effective in combination with Histamine (H1/H2) blockade


While we're on the topic of MCAS, Quercetin actually is bioflavonoid which blocks mast cell and basophile histamine degranulation. It is sold as a supplement isolated from plants, though my first preference is to use foods that contain the substance as they have many other valuable co-factors that are missing in an isolate. Bee pollen, onions (especially red ones and in the outermost rings), black/green tea, citrus, and tomatoes are a few sources rich in quercetin. It also has MAO-A, MAO-B inhibiting properties as well. Interestingly enough, recent studies showed that organically grown vegetables had higher concentrations, so another reason to buy organic.


For those of us with mast cell issues ----beta blockers even with H1 and H2's are a no go. It will degranulate mast cells. I think a good many of us have tried it- despite knowing this and most of us have found it to be worse than dealing with the problems.

I've used Quercetin for a couple years now and use a non citrus form of it. It does seem to help. Some of us have other issues with some of the foods that you've listed however. With some people green or black tea will make POTS worse - citrus causes some of us with mast cells to have a problem. Tomatoes are in the night shade family and can also cause allergic reactions. It's such a shame that those things that are supposed to be so good for us - we can't seem to do without consequences. Sometimes, we may not realize that things that are supposed to be good for us - could be causing some of our issues. For example, I recently found out I have issues with sulfites and sulfur - most of my diet consist of foods high in sulphur - like: onions, garlic, broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage etc. Now, I have to figure out how to eat a healthy diet and not have those types of foods. Or to at least minimize them.

Many of us are trying to be gluten and grain free. So, alcohol tincture would be out for us. Some people are so sensitive to things that even a small amount of dye in a pill will set off a problem. So, thinking that the water infusion method would be better for most of us. I know that Rama has mentioned Eucomma and Rehumina along with a few other herbs that he has used and found very beneficial and he makes a tea out of them. (Rama, can you tell everyone how much you use of these herbs, the combinations and how long you steep/boil them to make the tea. And also how much of it you take once you have it combined and ready?)

I'm not opposed to being the first MCAS person to try this, but first I have to find it. I have been trying to get it for a few months now. I called several Chinese grocery stores and also have tried to call a TCM in China Town here and no one answered. So, I will keep trying to get it and give it a go. I can get Rehumania and the other herbs that Rama told me about - it's the eucomma that's the problem. Like firewatcher said, it's probably better to combine them than to take them as a single herb.

You must be very careful with herbs. They are powerful medicines. What is good for one person is not good for another. If you don't know a persons ENTIRE medical history and issues, you can recommend something that would really mess them up. I hesitate to suggest anything to someone unless I know their entire history and issues. For sure, I'd never suggest something to a whole mass of people ---espically POTS people, unless I knew that there were minimal possible side effects. And if I know what those are, I will list that so a person can make their own decision as to whether or not to try something. All of our presentations are different and we are all dealing with different things. Some of us have high bp's and high NE levels. Others are low bp's and low NE levels. Some faint, others do not. Some have digestive issues and slow bowel actions, others are the complete opposite. All of us have tachy and orthostatic issues - some worse than others. So, there is a good bit of trial and error ----and it seems more error than not. :)

Issie

#14 Zap

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:16 PM

For those of us with mast cell issues ----beta blockers even with H1 and H2's are a no go. It will degranulate mast cells. I think a good many of us have tried it- despite knowing this and most of us have found it to be worse than dealing with the problems.


Bummer - I guess this suggests that there is another mechanism at work that either overrides the histamine blockade, or degranulates the mast cells in another way.

I'm happy to hear that Quercetin has been helpful - in the case of food allergy, the isolated form of it may be the safest bet after all.

It makes sense that tea/caffeine can make POTS worse for some. The information you've provided makes me suspect I probably don't have a mast cell problem, as I eat lots of the foods in question and at least at this point have not had problems with them. I also haven't had the problems I've read about with alcohol and MCAS.

Many of us are trying to be gluten and grain free. So, alcohol tincture would be out for us.

At least in my case, this is why everything our business makes uses Organic Grape Alcohol. It is much more hypoallergenic and risk free for those of us who are sensitive. I tend to be sensitive to a lot of things, so I can certainly understand. That said, alcohol and water work differently for extracting various compounds. Hence, our tinctures use a mix of water and grape alcohol suited to the specific herb(s) in a given extract/formula.

If Rama is having good results with a tea, this makes the most sense to try first. It is also the simplest method. Heat can, however, modify certain principles in the herbs as well. This complicates using herbs in a ground vs tea vs tincture comparison. I'd be curious to hear more about what Rama is doing.

I'd be happy to send you some of the herb once it arrives, if you'd like. We actually have about a hundred herbs in stock at a given time. This is one I had a harder time finding through channels available to me as an herbalist, so I can understand it being more difficult to locate at retail.

I would agree that formulas are the better approach, as the amount of any given herb is reduced. Also, the formula is more than the sum of its parts if designed by an experienced herbalist. It is also best to start with a small amount and listen to your body to see if the particular herb(s) are working for you.

It is wonderful to have an intelligent group with so much information here.

#15 issie

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 11:16 PM

You can't base whether or not you have mast cell issues on food sensitivities. Mast cell degranulation can occur out of the blue. It can be triggered by emotions, arousal, exercise and other things. It's an over-activation of mast cells that release histamine. Some people are finding that their POTS symptoms improve with treating a mast cell issue. Others find that it may be a part of their problem, but not ALL of their problem.

There is so much to learn about symptoms of POTS and things that can go along with it.

I'm wondering if grape alcohol is sulfite free? Since grape alcohol would be like wine - correct?

Issie